Ken Jennings Interview

James Troutman

Date: 1998/10/20
Last revised: 2003/07/21

This article was originally sent as a message to the Sondheim list on 1998/10/20. The interview with Ken Jennings was conducted in August, 1979.

A little while back I visited the Sondheim Stage web site and noticed the interview with Ken Jennings.

Anyway, Ken Jennings, for the one or two of you who might not know, created the role of Tobias Ragg (Toby) in the original Broadway production of Sweeney Todd. Seeing the piece on him at the Sondheim Stage reminded me that I had interviewed him back in August of 1979, about five or six months into the play's run.

In those days I did a classical music program once a week at an all-volunteer FM radio station (WMSP) in Harrisburg, PA, and I wanted to feature Sweeney Todd on my show (my program immediately followed A. J. Moulfair's Opera Showcase on Tuesday nights, which made it seem even more appropriate).

My plan was to play the complete recording along with a synopsis of the show and with an intermission between Acts 1 and 2. Naturally I needed an intermission feature. What better than to interview Stephen Sondheim himself? So in June I sent him a request for an interview.

I finally received a reply from Sondheim dated August 10 in which he graciously apologized for the delay in replying (he said he had been in Europe for a month and just returned; I didn't know then, but he was also recovering from a heart attack that he had suffered in April).

He went on to say, "I'm flattered and delighted that you want to do a show on me, but I've given up interviews for the nonce, merely because they're taking up too much time from work I should be doing. And, since I'm essentially lazy, I fear that to accept one would lead to accepting all. I do hope you will understand, and thank you again."

By an odd coincidence, one of the young volunteers at the station had a girlfriend who had a cousin (Ken Jennings) who happened to be appearing in Sweeney Todd, and she was able to arrange an interview with him.

So, in mid-August I went back up to NYC with several family members to see a Wednesday matinee performance of Sweeney Todd. Right after the show, we made our way back stage to Ken Jennings' dressing room, where I conducted a 40-minute interview.

He was a delightful young man, very easy to talk to, and I got more than enough material for a 10-minute intermission feature for my show. In fact, we managed to squeeze out another 10 minutes for a Broadway music show later that same week.

On listening to the tapes of the interview again, I decided that there are a few points that might be of interest to the folks on this list. So on Sunday I converted the tapes to WAV files and used those to key it into a text file.

What follows is a fairly complete transcription of the entire interview. For some reason the station gave me a bunch of 15-minute cassettes, so the interview ended up on three tapes; I've edited out the preliminary remarks on each tape. I've also done some minor editing for readability and to eliminate some of my inane comments (I was younger then).

Ken has a very expressive voice, which, alas, does not come across on the printed page (or the computer screen), so in a few places I've tried to indicate some of his vocal inflections.

Apologies in advance for not doing a better job of following up on some of the interesting points he raised. In case you didn't guess, this was my first time interviewing--and my last!

Enjoy!

Please note: if you have never seen Sweeney Todd or are unfamiliar with its plot, you may want to approach this interview with caution because there are SPOILERS (references to unexpected plot developments) lurking about. You have been warned.

JT: How long have you been in the theatre?

KJ: I've been successful in professional theatre for the last five years. I did All God's Chillun Got Wings, that was my first Broadway show five years ago at Circle in the Square, and that really got me a lot more stock work and other types of jobs, jobs that were hard to come by before I did that one Broadway show. So that really started any success I've had in the theatre, that other Broadway show. And this is the pinnacle, though, of everything I've done so far.

I've been acting, well, professionally, for about 12 years, I guess. But the first about four of those years I was still in college so I was kind of lackadaisical about it, so I was doing more college shows than professional shows. Many more college shows than professional shows. About the only thing I was doing professionally was children's theatre.

I've been acting, though, all through high school and a lot, a lot of community and amateur theatre. Lots of it. So I've been acting for a much longer time. And that's about how long I've been in the theatre. That's three different areas of theatre, I guess.

JT: Now you've won two awards [for this show]. Were these the first awards that you won on the professional level?

KJ: Yes, they were. The Drama Desk Award and the Theatre World Award.

JT: What exactly are those? I don't think I've ever heard of the Drama Desk award unless that's a new name for an older award.

KJ: Now it may be. It's also known as the Clarence Derwent award.

JT: What exactly is it? Who votes on it?

KJ: The Drama Desk. Now let me see if I can remember this and get this half way right. The Drama Desk is similar to the Tony Awards in that it's basically, well no, it's actually totally an organization comprised of theatre writers or theatre reporters. For instance, not necessarily critics. People who write articles on theatre but not critiques of shows. There's a nominating committee consisting of about six people who I knew who they were when I won the award but now their names slip my mind. And then I don't know how many people vote but the rest of those who vote are either theatre writers or theatre reporters. Now there was also another designation in there somewhere. I forget where this fits in. I think some of them are first night critics but many of the people in the Drama Desk organization are second night critics.

JT: What's a second night critic?

KJ: Apparently it's the people who are not let's say with the really, really big newspapers.

JT: They aren't with the New York Times.

KJ: They aren't. Although I think that there are theatre writers that are on the New York Times in the Drama Desk organization. I don't think though that someone like Richard Eder is in the Drama Desk organization. So there are theatre writers that are on the New York Times that are in the Drama Desk organization.

JT: Well, a newspaper like the New York Times has a lot of theatre writers.

KJ: Yes. So Richard Eder who is their first night critic, I think he would belong only perhaps to the Tony organization. The other writers would belong to the Drama Desk organization.

JT: And you call them second night critics.

KJ: That's what Tom McMyrtle [sp?] a theatre reporter for the Daily News...I'm pretty sure it's the Daily News...that was his term, second night critics.

JT: And the other award, the Theatre World award. Who awards that?

KJ: There is a publication, there's a book, John Lewis's Theatre World, and each year they pick 12 outstanding newcomers and they give a Theatre World award to each of the 12 outstanding newcomers. And I was one of the 12 for this year.

JT: That's great.

KJ: Oh, yes, it was wonderful, it really was.

...Hal Prince and Stephen Sondheim, although wonderful, charming people, were intimidating to work with.

JT: Which was the bigger thrill?

KJ: The Theatre World or the Drama Desk? Well, the Theatre World came first so that was a really big thrill. And then the Drama Desk was nice to get because it was all the theatre reporters and theatre writers.

JT: How is singing or performing in a Sondheim musical different from performing in another musical? Or is there a difference? You know why I ask that, of course. Sondheim has gotten a lot of criticism, both favorable and unfavorable, for the musicals he's written. They are supposed to be so advanced over other shows being done now. Do you agree with that?

KJ: I do.

JT: Do you think it's more difficult to perform in a Sondheim show?

KJ: Well, now I suppose, again we can speak of this in...coming at it from different angles. It's more difficult for me to perform in this show because, not necessarily because it's a Sondheim show but because it's such an important Broadway show and because Hal Prince and Stephen Sondheim, although wonderful, charming people, were intimidating to work with. It was really something. So in that sense it was hard to work in this particular Sondheim show for me because it was an original Sondheim show being done on Broadway. And that was a rather...I was intimidated by it.

JT: How did you get the part?

KJ: Well, I got the part last April, a year ago last April. I was submitted by an agent and I went to the audition, just read a speech, it was a speech that was turned into the song "Pirelli's Miracle Elixir," and sang "Danny Boy," and came back three other times for callbacks, and did the same thing, and about two weeks later I was told I had the job.

JT: I guess that was a thrill in itself.

KJ: It sure was. It was even more of a thrill when the show was such a big hit. Although it was just wonderful to do this show, there would have been some disappointment involved if it had closed after two weeks.

JT: How long were you rehearsing? You got the part a year ago in April, when did rehearsals begin?

KJ: Not till last December 27th.

JT: So there were what, about two months of rehearsals then? It opened March first?

KJ: It opened March first, however, in that two months there was also three weeks of previews because we started previews February 6th.

JT: Which is harder, rehearsals or previews?

KJ: Well, during previews you're actually rehearsing during the day so it's particularly hard. So you're performing at night and rehearsing during the day so the day is very long. Because you might have a nine or a ten o'clock call and the show at night gets out about eleven o'clock. So you have a very long day for those three weeks. It's very hard. Plus they don't have to give you a day off in that period. But they did. They realized that this being the difficult show that it is that everybody needed the day off. So we had our days off.

JT: We often hear about shows being tinkered with at the last minute, new songs being added, old songs being taken out. Was there a lot of this with this show?

KJ: No, there wasn't. One song was taken out, the judge's song "Johanna"...

Hal Prince changed approaches to scenes, made certain scenes more vehement...

JT: It's on the recording...

KJ: ...yes, and bits and pieces of other songs were taken out. However, the show, although not a lot of actual musical changing was done, the show did change during previews. There were...some scene changes were done. Dialog changes. And also the approach to the show changed to some extent. Hal Prince changed approaches to scenes, made certain scenes more vehement...with me definitely more vehemence in most of the scenes...and looked for more humor in other scenes, so a lot of attitudes in the show changed, which made it a different show. It was a different show opening night than it was during the preview period.

JT: You talked about Harold Prince. Now you said it was intimidating to work with him, but getting past that stage, how was he to work for?

KJ: Wonderful, but I don't think I ever got past that stage.

[laughter]

JT: I don't think I would have either.

KJ: I found I had to function within that stage. He's an absolute genius. Wonderful.

JT: He's not a dictator then?

KJ: He can be and at times isn't a dictator. It depends on what he thinks is going to be the most effective way to approach the scene, I think. He was not very dictatorial with me, although he can be a dictator, and he can jump all over you if he doesn't like what you're doing. He let me have a lot of leeway, although he stayed on my back, especially near the end of the preview period, searching for new things in the scenes. It was wonderful to work with him. The man is a genius.

JT: I saw the show first this past April. Have there been any changes since then?

KJ: No. Not since opening night.

JT: I was so impressed, having been running as long as it has, what about six months now? I was almost expecting to see you all sort of set in your roles and to see sort of a mechanical performance, but it's not. I was really pleased to see that it's still very much a live show. That excitement is still there.

KJ: That's good.

JT: I noticed there was one cast change.

KJ: Yes, Victor Garber.

JT: Was there any difficulty in adjusting to the new member of the cast? What's his name, I didn't jot it down...

KJ: Chris Groenendaal. It's spelled Grown-en-doll but it's pronounced Grow-en-doll.

JT: He plays the part of Anthony.

KJ: Yeah. No, there really wasn't trouble adjusting to him at all. Well, for me there wasn't. I have so little to do with him. For other performers there may have been, but for me there was no trouble at all.

JT: How does a new performer come into a show like this? It must be awfully difficult...

KJ: It's very difficult.

JT: ...someone has already created a role and has presumably created a rapport with his fellow actors.

KJ: Absolutely.

JT: What sort of rehearsal time does he get?

KJ: Well, Chris was the understudy for the role. He was also the Bird Seller. So he had all those months of understudy rehearsal. However that's only one day a week, sometimes two days a week, I think, and it's done without costumes, without the actual props, without the actual set, and with just a piano without the orchestra. Even his final rehearsal--he did have a rehearsal with the full company--but again, the rest of the people were not in costume, there was not an orchestra there, at least I don't think there was the orchestra there...and I think he was able to use his props, but even the set was just some set pieces. Plus he didn't have the benefit of Hal Prince's direction. So he had... Those are tremendous difficulties. What it amounted to is never having a dress rehearsal.

JT: So he went on stage his first night without ever having a real dress rehearsal?

KJ: Yes, that's right.

JT: Harold Prince was not around to direct him...

KJ: That's right.

JT: ...so who did?

KJ: The stage manager. The stage manager and the conductor.

JT: When does the director leave the show? After opening night?

KJ: He has been back to give notes since opening night. Not...Only two or three times, I imagine. Maybe a few more times in the very beginning of the performance period after opening, maybe he was back a few times then, but he has not been back recently because he's so involved with Evita. So he's not been back recently. Stephen Sondheim comes back and gives notes.

JT: Now when he comes back, does he sit in the audience?

KJ: Yes. Watches the show. Takes notes. Gives them to the stage manager, and the stage manager gives them to the actors.

JT: What sort of notes?

KJ: Actually very small notes. For instance he'll tell you that he thinks you ought to hold your cheek more after you've been slapped, or something like that. Really tiny things.

JT: Little things like that?

KJ: Yes. Another person who gives wonderful notes is our conductor. He gives acting notes, and... I don't know if he gives acting notes if he's not asked for them, but I do ask him for them. And naturally he gives musical notes, and he gives wonderful notes. He's really a sharp, sharp man.

In the musical end of the play, but also in the, for me in the scenes and in just the general scope of the play, he's been a great help.

There is something else in the character besides the innocence.

JT: [Toby is] sort of the innocent bystander who gets involved...without any volition of [his] own...gets involved with the evil things going on around the stage. Is that how you see your role?

KJ: Well, yes and no. Yes, he is very innocent. He is very put-upon by everyone. And yet there is also...I don't want to say too much, because of your listeners that might come and see the show, about what happens, so I'm going to be rather round-about speaking about some things. There is something else in the character besides the innocence. And I definitely play it. It's OK that it's not seen. It's definitely OK that it's not seen. But there is something else there in the character besides innocence. He will become at times in the performance, oh, I don't know, almost a cornered rat, and I think that he thinks that Todd at times is cornering him. That's OK if it's not seen. Apparently it is not very obvious, like in my song with Angela and stuff. It's OK if it's not. It's actually just an emotional springboard for myself then, more than anything the audience has to see.

JT: I think it's sometimes called the subtext.

KJ: I suppose so.

JT: Something that lies below the surface.

KJ: Yes, this definitely lies below the surface. Sometimes it's on the surface, just very, very slightly on the surface.

JT: Can I ask a theatrical secret?

KJ: Sure.

JT: How is the razor worked?

KJ: Oh, the blood is in the handle of the razor. And there is a button on the handle that you push the button and then the blood goes up to the blade end of the razor and it squirts out the cutting edge of the blade onto the neck.

JT: So as you're pulling it across the neck...

KJ: ...you're pushing the button and the blood is squirting out...

JT: It will go exactly where you want.

KJ: Well, yes, sometimes. Sometimes. We've had trouble with those props. That is a very difficult prop. There have been many...well, tonight's performance is our 200th performance, and so I guess this doesn't sound like very much. It seemed like a lot. There have been at least a dozen performances, perhaps more, in which when I kill...Ooh!

JT: Yes, yes. We'll edit that out.

KJ: Oh, all right. Then I can say this to you and you can edit it out? OK, great! All right, fine. I'll tell you all of it. There have been at least a dozen performances where when I kill Todd in the end, the blood has not come out of the razor. And that's really something when Todd dies and there's no blood. Also, then I will continue what I was saying before, the thing I was talking about the other thing in the character. There is a tension in the character. He is so put upon, there is a wildness in the character. There's a madness in the character. Tobias is mad.

JT: Oh, certainly.

KJ: But even before he goes mad.

JT: Even before he goes down into the cellar?

KJ: I think he's mad. There's just nothing that has ever brought it out. But I think he is mad.

JT: That's interesting. I never thought about that...

KJ: I think he's mad...but anyway the blood that didn't come out of the razor.

JT: That must be horrifying in a way. What do you do, continue on as if it didn't happen?

KJ: You do continue on as if it didn't happen, however, one night...one night the razor was broken and I did not know it was broken. And I came up to Todd, and you know how he pushes me back just as if he were pushing a fourway? This night he turned all the way around, and I thought that's interesting, he's trying something new in the scene. He turned all the way around and he reached out and he grabbed me and he pulled me into him and he said, "Be careful of the razor," and he flung me back. But he said it in a soft voice. And I went back and I thought why should I be careful of the razor? So I crawled back and I picked up the razor and the blade was coming out of the handle, it had become unfastened, so I had to hold both the handle and the blade together, and I did let go of the blade to push the button, and the blade began to droop down, but I quickly gripped it and picked it up again. So that changed the last scene.

JT: I'm sure it would.

KJ: [laughing] It did.

JT: Most actors have costume changes...

KJ: I have wig changes.

JT: That's what I was about to say, you have wig changes. How many of them are there? None of it's your real hair...

KJ: Yes, this is my real hair.

JT: Well, that's your real hair there.

KJ: Yes, none of it's my real hair.

JT: In the show none of it's your real hair.

KJ: Yeah. I have three wig changes. There were supposed to be four, but one of them came in too late so it was cut. So I have three wig changes.

JT: What would the fourth one have been?

KJ: Well, when the Beadle dies my hair was supposed to stand up on end. That's true!

JT: Really?

KJ: They had such a hard time making a wig. When they finally did get it made, it came in about two days before we were ready to open, and by that time Hal Prince had decided that the show was frozen. That nothing else new was going in. And so he didn't allow it in. I was glad he didn't allow it. I would have had to sing the whole song "Not While I'm Around" with this wig that...I was supposed to activate it by pulling a ring! Who knows, if the ring had caught on something in the middle of "Not While I'm Around" my hair would have stood on end. That would have been awful!

JT: I notice you have this, whatever it is, hanging over here. Is that a superstition or a good luck charm...?

KJ: Oh, my witch there! That's actually a Norwegian kitchen witch. A friend of mine brought that to me. It has no superstitious value to me at all. It's only because a friend brought it to me, that's the only reason I have it.

JT: Well, we hear about superstitions in the theatre. do you have any?

KJ: Superstitions. I'd say I don't have any superstitions. I do get, um, you wouldn't call them superstitions, but however, I do like things to be done in a set way for awhile. I enjoy...for instance, there's a, when I'm climbing into the cart one of my friends, Robert Ousley, in the cast, always says the same thing to me: "As always." And I like to hear that same thing when I'm getting into the cart. One time I found a quarter in my pocket, and there were a couple good performances with the quarter in my pocket so I left it in my pocket for awhile. Well, I guess that is a superstition in a way. But I have no superstition that remains and stays. I have superstitions, I get these ideas, these whims, that last for a couple performances, for a couple performances I'll stick with them. Maybe I'll sit the same way or I'll knock on the same piece of wood or something, and I will do that...but no superstition that really carries through week after week.

JT: I guess I almost have to ask this. I've asked you how it is to work with Harold Prince; how is it to work with Angela Lansbury?

KJ: Wonderful! [with a rising inflection] Wonderful! [whispered] Wonderful!

I guess when you first meet a person you...there's even more of an appreciation of them to some extent. And now after 200 performances, I guess some of the spontaneity has gone out of "Not While I'm Around", but I remember during the rehearsal period, and naturally she's the star of the show, Angela was so wonderful to perform that song with. I tend to get into it everywhere, on the spur of the moment I really try to play it, so even with just an orchestra rehearsal standing in the middle of the rehearsal hall, I'd sit on the floor and do it and everything else, you know, and Angela would just sit there with me, although neither of us were in costume or anything...we'd just be in a lobby of a theatre doing it, she'd play the scene totally and utterly, and that was really wonderful. It was very impressive. A wonderful performer.

JT: And Len Cariou?

KJ: Len was really frightening at first. He's wonderful to perform with, but one of the first times that I spoke to him was a time that he was going to, he was getting prepared for "God That's Good." I've never even told him this; he doesn't even know it. He was getting ready for "God That's Good" and I said "Hi, Len." It was early in the rehearsal period, and I guess he was getting the character. He just turned and the most murderous look was in his eye, that scared me to no end and for months, well, no, for at least weeks, I was terrified to say hello to him again. And now...now I've got a nice relationship with Len, but even back stage I do keep very quiet with Len because although I've not got any formal training as an actor, I guess someone would call me more of a method actor. I try to get into things. And so I do try to keep a distance between myself and Sweeney Todd when I'm thinking about the character. I do try to look upon him as Sweeney Todd.

JT: So even in your dealings with Len Cariou, you...

KJ: Backstage. Not when the show is over. Not when the show is over and maybe we're just going out for a drink, but during the course of the show, backstage during the course of the show.

JT: And that works for you then?

KJ: [laughing] Oh, well, I don't know if it does. Sometimes it does; sometimes it doesn't. It's something I do. I don't really know if it always works.

JT: It must work, because you perform well--

KJ: Sometimes!

JT: In other words I didn't see you on one of your off nights?

KJ: Yes. That's true.

JT: Well, I hope I never do--

KJ: I hope not too!

JT: I thought you were terrific each time I saw you.

KJ: Ah, well, good, I'm glad to hear that. That's good.

JT: One more thing. I know you have to eat and get ready for the next performance, but I couldn't possibly leave without...you referred to Sondheim a couple times, but what is Sondheim like?

KJ: [takes deep breath] Stephen Sondheim. Well, first of all, I have not had that many social dealings with him. I've said hello, how are you and he said fine, how are you, and I said fine. He's a quiet man, at least in my dealings with him. He is not what you'd call business-like, because business-like has too much of a cut and dried connotation to it. However, he is involved with the task at hand, I would say. Most of my dealings with Stephen Sondheim have been just dealings...uh...my approach to "Not While I'm Around," discussions of scenes in the show, discussions of the songs. I've not really had very many social dealings with him, so it's really hard to give you any more of a description of the man other than that because it's really hard to say what a person's--

JT: It's all on a professional--

KJ: Yes, it's all on a professional level.

JT: Well, how would he work with you when you were preparing a song?

KJ: Well, in the beginning he sat down and he played the song...and he sang it in the early rehearsals, and we discussed moods of the song and musical dynamics of the song...and then...you'd continue that discussion. Just, he'll say in the beginning, an example is, I don't even know if I do this anymore, this probably got changed, but a very early example of a musical dynamic that we were going with was:

[sings softly] Nothing's gonna harm you
[speaks] kind of soft and gentle and
[sings louder] Not while I'm around
[speaks] a little more urgent and a little more assertive,
so the line would be
[sings softly] Nothing's gonna harm you
[sings louder] Not while I'm around
[sings softly] Nothing's gonna harm you
[sings louder] No sir, not while I'm around
[speaks] and that's an example. He would give musical dynamics like that.

JT: He'd go over it almost note by note then.

KJ: Sometimes he does, yes, sometimes he does.

JT: Does he allow you to contribute you own ideas?

KJ: Oh, very much so. Very much so, yes. He will give notes, and a lot of times if I find his notes hard to do, I will just kind of slip by them, or let them slip by me and hope I don't get them again. [laughs] And often I don't! I will attempt them, but sometimes it's hard.

JT: Has he ever asked you to do something that you felt was wrong for the character or the song or that you just couldn't do?

KJ: Yeah. Yes. Sometimes I think they are wrong and I'll let them slip by, however...when you're having a philosophical discussion often you can switch points around and argue any point, I suppose you can, and acting is sort of the same way in the sense that there are so many different approaches to a role...

For a while the last lines, I don't even know if you can use this but I'll tell you. For a while I was reading one of the last speeches in the last scene, I was saying,

No, no,
Bake me a pie--
To delight my eye,
And I will sigh
If the crust be...

I would just drop it there. Drop the "high." I got a note to keep the "high" in and say "If the crust be high." Well, for a long time that was hard for me, cause I really liked the other way, I thought the other way was more incoherent and for a while I liked the incoherence.

JT: But he wanted the "high"--

KJ: He wanted the "high"--

JT: --the rhyme.

KJ: So sometimes I'd do it, often I wouldn't do it. However, then I came up with a new thought, it's hard to say what it is, and I just began doing the "high." So now I always do it. I haven't dropped it for at least three weeks or so.

JT: Three weeks.

KJ: Yes. [laughing]

JT: After six months--

KJ: I know--

JT: --you finally put it in for the last three weeks. How long to you think you'll keep it in now?

KJ: I have no idea really. No idea. But for awhile I guess I enjoy it now. I'm enjoying it. So for awhile, I guess.

JT: We were talking about the set there. I think that I read someplace that it cost something like $800,000 to construct the set in the theatre here. It's an overpowering setting.

KJ: It is.

JT: Just entering the theatre and seeing the setting, sets the tone for the show. Is it intimidating to work in that set?

KJ: Well, not for me it's not, because I have...I climb, I only climb one flight of stairs during the course of the show and that's just in the very beginning in one of the "Ballads of Sweeney Todd." I'm basically just on the stage level, in my little cart, and the unit. So for me it has not been difficult. However, a lot of the people in the ensemble have to clamber up and down those stairs and cross that bridge and everything. So I imagine for them it's more difficult. But for me it's not been difficult. It is an overwhelming set though. I'm not really sure of the figure that it cost, but it could well have been $800,000.

JT: I read that figure somewhere. It was a tremendous--

KJ: Yes, tremendous.

the set...is an actual foundry...that was up in Rhode Island

JT: More for that set than a lot of shows cost to put on.

KJ: I've heard, and I'm sure it's true, that at least part of the set, I think most of the set, is an actual foundry, an abandoned foundry that was up in Rhode Island, and they brought it down piece by piece and assembled it on stage, and it's welded into the steel of the building.

JT: Really?

KJ: Yes, that's really amazing. Can you imagine what it will be like to take down?

JT: Good grief, it'll cost another 800,000 just to rip it out.

KJ: It may. It may. That is amazing.

JT: Do you think it could have been done as successfully without this setting?

KJ: I think so. Yeah, I think it could have. You know it's hard to say. I'm sure the producers think it could have been done as successfully without this set.

JT: Whose idea was it, do you know, to go all out on the setting like this? Harold Prince?

KJ: No, I think it was just the set designer's, Eugene Lee. It was his idea. I think he just took the ball and ran with it. I think a lot of people were surprised where he wound up with it! [laughs] It is an immense set. I think that, although I think that the show would definitely work in another setting, I do think that this set is one of the impressive values of the show. I think that this set gives the show an added strength. I'm sure at times, some of the producers have referred to it, that it can even be distracting, however, I think that most people kind of enjoy the overwhelming set. I think it is one of the good values of the show.

JT: You mentioned "overwhelming." That's probably the first adjective I would think of to describe this show. And the second one, at least when I first saw it, was it's "operatic."

KJ: Yes. Well, I saw, I think I'm the only cast member who has gone to see it so far, I saw the...it would be hard for me to even comment on the statement you just made, however, I went up to see the video tape of the show at Lincoln Center, the Lincoln Center library.

JT: There's a video tape of the show?

KJ: Yes. Unfortunately, the rule is it won't be available for viewing by the general public for the next five years.

JT: But after five years we would be able to see it?

KJ: Oh, sure. Just go up, make an appointment at the Lincoln Center library to see the video tape of the show. And I went up to see the video tape of the show and was stunned by it. I was amazed. I thought the show was thought-provoking and very philosophically interesting, although I disagreed with a lot of it, but then when I saw the video tape I realized that, although it is thought-provoking and interesting, I think that the most important value of the show is that it finally just sweeps you away emotionally. I think its real appeal in the end is to the heart. I think that the final, what finally comes about as far as Sweeney Todd is concerned, I think it just rips you apart. When I saw the ending of the show on the video tape I was stunned, even though it was just a video tape. Len Cariou in the end is just-- Well, I'm sure would you not find that true?

JT: Oh, definitely.

KJ: Just stunning. I mean what he eventually discovers, the discovery he makes in the end, the way he discovers it, I just was amazed at it.

JT: It is draining emotionally.

KJ: I'm sure it is. The first response to the show is an emotional response rather than an intellectual response. Would you agree?

when I did see the video tape I was amazed, amazed, I was swept away by it.

JT: Oh, definitely. I think that's why it works, that it does appeal to the emotions.

KJ: Absolutely. I was amazed because I came away from the viewing of the video tape with much more respect for the show. Because when you're in the show, you can't see how it plays. And so I could not see some of the things that the other actors were doing, and when I did see the video tape I was amazed, amazed, I was swept away by it. I really was. Watching it on video tape was an emotional experience.

JT: Something I'm curious about--are other Broadway shows being videotaped?

KJ: I'm not sure how many years they've been doing this. I know they have, and it's finally now available to the general public, I know that it goes back as far as Company, at least. I don't know how much further it goes back. I know that some of the other Broadway shows that they have videotaped, I know for certain Elephant Man. I'm not sure about others. Whose Life Is It Anyway? may have been videotaped already. I saw in their brochure that Elephant Man, they have a video tape of that. However, if you're not directly involved with a show, for a straight play there's a limitation of three years, and for a musical there's limitation of five years. If you are directly involved with a show, you can see it any time.

It was wonderful to see it. I never have seen a tape of a show before, it was wonderful to go see this one.

JT: Apparently that was a good performance that was taped. It was not an off night? Were you satisfied with your performance.

KJ: No, I thought that was an off night for me. [laughs]

JT: You mean what has been preserved for posterity--

KJ: --was for me an off night. Unfortunately. It was instructive. I could judge it because I know what I do on better nights. Basically what I do. So I could see what I was going for, I could see what was working and what wasn't working. However, in that particular performance, it was an off night for me, I thought. The show was tremendous, tremendous, it was wonderful, so although I thought it was an off night for me, the show still worked.

JT: Might that not just be that you are a little overcritical of yourself?

KJ: Possibly, possibly. But you know it's funny. When an opinion--I've always felt this--when an opinion becomes a belief. I believe it was an off night. There's a chance that it could be wrong, but it's my absolute belief that it was an off night, and I could probably talk about it till I was blue in the face, even with people that saw me perform and they'd say it really wasn't an off night, and I'd say, yes it was, it was an off night.

JT: Well, I'm sorry.

KJ: [laughing] Well, what can you do?

JT: It's done. I certainly want to thank you for taking the time to talk--

KJ: It was my pleasure.

JT: --and it was fun talking to you.

KJ: It was fun talking to you.